BRX and SCADA

[Garyhlucas]

We are getting ready to deliver one of our small waste treatment plants that currently uses a BRX plc with a C-More HMI that provides us with data logging, remote access and alarming via email and text messaging.  For the tiny plants we build this is not only perfectly adequate but way more sophisticated control than any municipal plant.  The reason is that we build a waste treatment plant PRODUCT.  So each plant we build is better than the previous one and the control program is already 5 generations along.  The typical municipal plant control system is essentially written to a spec by a contractor who wants to do as little as possible.

The problem is this job specifies a SCADA system with remote logging to a local PC and all kinds of alarming capability in ways we don't do it.  We actually have more than what they want in a different way.  One of the specifications is being compatible with 3rd party programs like Wonderware Intouch.  I understand that this is where OPC comes in but we have never used OPC, and I see that AD no longer sells KEPware OPC.

There is a local company that supplies SCADA to several municipalities here in Maryland and when we spoke to them about another job they were arrogant beyond belief.  They wanted to just tell us all the things they required and wouldn't even discuss cost of their system with us as they wanted to deal directly with the municipality.  I told them we had no problem sending them the 20 channels of data and 125 alarm points we currently have, and I could tell they were used to like 10 and 10!

Our systems are tiny, $100K for SCADA is simply ludicrous when the customers balk at $250K for one of our systems and the competition is $400K.  I should mention that our systems are doing an amazing job, and 3rd party sampling of our effluent quality is shocking everybody because it is so far below permit on jobs where no one else can even make permit.

So we could really use some advice on this.  Is there a cost effective SCADA package that would integrate well with BRX?

[ATU]

When I was looking at packages a few years ago, Ignition looked pretty reasonable for small installations. I think the Modbus driver was already included and you only buy the modules you need.

[BobO]

It wouldn't be SCADA in the true sense, but dang, if you could get the Host guys to finish that web system they promised...

[Garyhlucas]

I have a bad feeling about this. I think we are going to get a very expensive shaft on this job.

[jgreenewv]

A quick search of Wonderware's site shows they offer a Do-More driver.  https://knowledge.insourcess.com/Wonderware_Device_Integration_and_Communication/Tech_Notes/Which_DAServer-Driver_Should_I_Use%3F  That should cover the Wonderware compatibility requirement.  They also have Modbus drivers available.  If they only want it to be able to work with Wonderware you should be golden.  If not, then I would also recommend looking at Ignition.  Contact a sales rep and they should be able to help put together a package that will handle your requirements at minimal cost.  Good luck!

[ATU]

I am not an Ignition rep, nor have I used it on a job yet, but I did look around at other packages when one of my customers was interested in a SCADA package. I liked ignition because it wasn't tag limited like many other packages that price it according to how many tags you use. Also the Modbus driver was included in the basic  package, which now runs about $11k + server hardware (it used to be around 7k when I investigated it, but all things go up in price)  From there you buy what you need or what the customer needed so it was easy to tailor it to the job.  There also was a scripting module option that I liked so that I had a way out if I needed to manipulate the data.  They have been around for awhile and I believe the software was developed in the US, so tech support seemed to be good. Try it, they have a demo package.

Another out is to get Kepware, that is a solid relatively easy package to configure, not free,  but comparable to Ignition.  I believe it too has additional modules that might fit your needs. 
Tech support is also quite good, I have had to use it several times. I think they too have a demo.

[ddubs2248]

Guys, I will throw another one out there that is comparable to Ignition and a little bit more budget friendly.  Company called Tatsoft, software is FactoryStudio.  You may give it a look, it comes with everything included and their pricing is on their website.  You can also scale down based on tag count if you need to reduce costs even further. 

Based on what you describe, I'd go with Ignition or FS....just my 2 cents.

[Garyhlucas]

Thanks for all the suggestions.  11K for ignition, not including all the programming time that will be needed.  Yeah my boss will have a puppy over this if we are forced to go this route.  Sadly a SCADA system does absolutely nothing to improve our system.  It is already way over any of our competition in terms of how well it performs, how easy it is to run, how much data we collect, how we send alarms etc.

SCADA is like the check box for Allen Bradley in this industry.  Yep we got that, move along, nothing to see here.

The father of one of our young engineers works for an engineering firm that does industrial control systems.  He told me his dad said "They don't use that crap", when referring to the BRX we are using.  He is right, there are a lot of things missing from your product. 

Things like PLCs that lose their program at the drop of a hat, one that got reloaded every month for 14 years, despite every possible electrical noise filter and even changing out the PLC and all the I/O modules.  AIC USB to serial modules so unreliable that we carried two if we were working out of town.  Paid tech support telling us that a problem has been known for 3 years and no idea if they will ever fix it.  Two software licenses, one for the PLC programming and another for communications  and sharing them using dongles, file transfers etc, because they are so expensive.  PLCs delivered with Rev 0 firmware that must first have new firmware uploaded before you can use them, and it often takes an hour or more to do so. AB UPS backup units at 5 times the price made specially for them by APC, WITHOUT any surge protection!

Please keep making your crap, because it felt so good to stop pulling out my hair when we abandoned AB 6 years ago.

[BobO]

We're just clueless Tennessee hillbillies...what could we possibly know about building PLCs? I wonder if we would be as disrespected if we were TI or Siemens?

I did chuckle just a bit the other day. Another customer was lamenting the fact that TI wouldn't use our stuff, even though that's where we learned to build it. Not sure what that says...

[Controls Guy]

TI wouldn't use our stuff, even though that's where we learned to build it. Not sure what that says...

I started having my doubts about TI's sanity when, despite having an awesome product lineup, they got out of the business anyway.

[Controls Guy]

Thanks for all the suggestions.  11K for ignition, not including all the programming time that will be needed.

How about DAQ Factory for like a grand?  (and pretty easy to use too)  I don't have a real firm grasp on what your requirements are.

Besides, how do you find yourself in this spot?  Was this not in the original spec?  If it was, how does your company come up with a number without already having a plan?

[Controls Guy]

Did your boss use PHB budgeting?

[ATU]

I had a boss like that.  Kidding aside, Controls guy is right. If a customer wants something, he should pay for it. If your company doesn't want to get into that line of work, it doesn't have to.  Give the guy a reasonable price to provide the hooks into your system to get the data (Scada Ready option?)  An extra routine that collects all the data they could possibly want and any outside control commands. It puts all the data in one place and makes it super easy for integration. You could possibly leverage the communication capabilities of the HMI.
Your company doesn't provide the Scada package, but here is an option that opens your system up to anyone's Scada package and the docs to show where the data is, whether its Modbus, EIP or IOT.  I have seen this in other control packages and they still charge a pretty penny for it. However, you don't have the headaches and stay with what you are comfortable with.

Then the customer can see how expensive it really is, but if he really wants it,  this is what you offer.

[jwbaker3]

We use Ignition, Wonderware, Cimplicity, RS Factorytalk view what ever the customer requires. We prefer Ignition from a programming point of view. It has OPC and Modbus built in and you can add others if needed. They have a new product out called Edge we have not used it but it is lower cost (I think) A lot of projects we use the SCADA program as the HMI to control the system with a small PC. If you don't have a lot of tags Wonderware may be a good option, it is a little harder to program but it is very capable. The licensing is a pain, you need a license for each node on the network and the number of tags used. If you want the graphics to look great and you are willing to put the time in it Wonderware is the best with the arctestra graphics. (IMO)

JW

[Garyhlucas]

This is municipal job, we are new to building a plant this size, and the boss really wanted this job. Ego is everything and with it comes a lack of focus. This job was bid to the customer for a job not designed around our equipment or process and uses a piece of equipment I did not design until after we got the contract. Every line item is way over budget and we don?t yet have approval to build anything. I am pretty sure the Dilbert cartoons are about us.