Corpate CYA

[DLTimmons]

Don't you just love when some management guy thinks he knows what the best PLC is and never program one in his life!!

Does anyone have any good quality data on Automation Direct(do-more 205 base systems) vs. AB compactlogix? Management claiming we have too much down time and the poor quality I/O cards from AD are the cause. We have a bunch of parts changers doing Electric maintenance that start changing cards as a first line trouble shooting method, and they never put the original back in if it did not fix the problem. 

I would like to keep them from drinking the AB the only good guilty PLC Kool-Aid and the very high cost that goes with it.   

[plcnut]

I don't have any data, but I can say that the only real IO card problems I have had with the 205 series has all been related to coils without any suppression. The spikes can wreak havoc on the cards. All I have had to do, is add the proper surge suppression, and the issues went away.
IOW: I have found the 205 series to be very reliable as long as proper wiring techniques are used.

[DLTimmons]

I have agree fully. I just have to have some way of getting thru to the management team that all they are going to gain by making this switch is a lot less money for other projects. As a former coworker state we would not have done half the projects we did if we had been using AB.

I just hate having to deal with Rockwell software activations!!!!!!

[PLCGuy]

What plcnut said. I have been with this company for 17 years. There is automation direct plcs everywhere. Even overseas. I have had some bad output cards go bad due to shorted coils, bad designs, but very very rarely. The cost of AB products is rediculous and so is the software. I have people in a sister plant still using the micrologix with RS500 software cause buying the rs5000 software is out of sight. RS500 is barbaric compared to the D0-More. If management adds up all the cost... You do have to be careful, we have management that live by AB their opinions and outlook is really biased. No matter what is said, they find a way to defend using AB even if the cost is triple to what it would be using something else. Nice I do not have to answer to those and can use what I want at this plant.

[Garyhlucas]

I used AD PLCs for 16 years, then went to work for a company using AB for 12 years. Way way way more problems on the AB PLCs. Then there was the software side of things that just made you want to scream. Stupid crap like shipping CompactLogix processors with version 1.0 firmware that is completely unusable so you have to upload new firmware before loading a program. This often took an hour.  I have pulled the plug on using or supporting AB in my new job. Don’t miss AB a bit.

[DLTimmons]

We know what the best bang for the buck is in PLC's. How do we convey that to management that is wanting to CYA with Higher ups. "No one ever got fired for buying AB because it does not fail"  We have nothing that if it goes down will mean life or death.

Supposedly we had a input card fail after three hours so all AD stuff is junk and causes to much down time. I had a Click run with 120 volts AC the 24 volt dc input for 2 month before it failed, Wander why   

They never had to connect to a stand along Compact logix in the middle on the night or talk some thru a problem.

[BobO]

Confirmation bias. Whatever. We'll take care of the customers who do buy from us.

[DLTimmons]

Now this is the bunch that wanted us to control braking on a 2 arm decoiler with one proportional value on the tank side of the valve manifold because they did not want to spend the money for two. Yes one valve control braking on both arms now it was one at a time.

Bob0

You have a problem fixed before you even communicate with someone from AB. You want a real blast try contacting Siemens

[jwbaker3]

We use what is best suited for the task at hand or what the customer request. AB, Siemens, GEIP, Omron, AD, Mitsubishi, ABB, If installed and designed properly we had found all of them to be very reliable. It comes down to service, support (locally from someone like me and the Manufacturer) and knowledge of the plant maintenance people to keep the systems running and what do they stock for spares already. We have hundreds of installations running some over 15 years old with AD products (DL05, DL06, DL205, DL405, Domore, Productivity) and like others have said if installed properly we do not have problems with the Automation Direct hardware. The support from AD and Host is better than any of the others we work with, (they will admit if they have a issue and fix it quick, get AB to say it is their problem) AB you better have a tech connect contract ($$$/year) or break out the credit card if you need help. We have had a lot of trouble with the ML1100 loosing the program in memory, we quit using them and went to the ML1400 if AB is required for a small project. We have not tracked the failure data on one brand vs another but we have no problem promoting AD products, which puts our reputation on the line also.

JW

[DLTimmons]

Thanks to all I need someone to talk to. One good thing get use to using AB again then when thing go belly up I has AB on my resume.

I had this keep me up 4 hours Thursday morning. Trying to find the right argument to present that would stop them from doing something that will cost them so much. Yes I’m biased who want to do something the hard way when there a much easier way that cost less.  I really hate Rockwell software activation locking to just one PC or that Dongle that gets lost or broken. Part of the problem is we are getting some new people in that have never work with anything but AB. Therefore they don’t know to think about using a Do-more. The reason we are getting them is the former employers have shut down the operations in this area. Could it be in part that they never watched their cost? The highest price there for it must be the best kind of thing.

[Controls Guy]

I've used a TON of DL stuff over the years, as well as a lot of all the different AB and Siemens generations, and a smattering of Generous Electric, Omron and so on, and in my experience, the ADC stuff is actually the BEST for failure rate.  The AB and Siemens stuff is good, too, but probably a bit higher OOB failure rate than ADC, especially AB.

I did have one horrible project on an early Control Logix in like 1999-2000, probably around v2.5 with a CPU, a DeviceNet card, the DOS PC module with the RJ45 serial port, an Ethernet card, a lot of analog, three servo cards running 1336-FORCE drives with induction motors and encoders, and miscellaneous discrete.  EVERYTHING in that app failed.  They replaced the CPU, both comm cards, the analog, the servos, and I think even the PC card, rack and power supply.  I think only the digital escaped unscathed.

I also had one site with an S7-300 where a bunch of stuff died in 07 or so about a year after commissioning, but a lot of stuff from a lot of different brands died simultaneously, so it had to have been some electrical issue rather than anything to do with Siemens per se.

[DLTimmons]

What started this rant is a big project that using 42 servo drives that will connect Ethernet to the controller.
It's not my project and the kid that doing it what to use a $10,000 AB control logix and $3200 software package. He only worked with AB four systems at that. Based on that he thinks AB better.  He priced out 21 H2-Ctrio and 42 encoder cards for the M700 the encoder card double the price of the drive and that combo raised the price of the do-more system to within 700 dollars of the AB system. This has management all excited in the can get AB for only $700 dollars more the “AD Junk just look at the card usage”.  We have a lot of I/O cards replaced that are not back because they don’t want to pay for good maintenance guys and controlled climate control room free of dirt and water.

[Garyhlucas]

There is a real good reason why AD stuff is reliable.  It's free tech support.  Anything that generates calls to tech support costs AD money too, they have skin in the game.  At AB the same problem generates revenue for paid tech support!  In addition to that AB itself does not stock anything. They pushed the stocking function out to the distributors.  We got struck by lightning on a job out of state.  My AB distributor did not have even one part needed to get this sewage plant up and running, and every part was three weeks from AB!  I asked if they could get the parts from another distributor. Oh no a distributor who put a lot of their money into spares on the shelf is not going to help a distributor that did.  Fortunately the distributor near the job had every part, but they couldn't sell it to our company.  I had to go to the counter and buy it all with a credit card so it would be a local sale!  This kind of BS just makes me want scream!

[DLTimmons]

Update Time

I was told Monday that we will only use AB from now on. Had to unlink my account here from my work email, and log on from home so I can say what I feel.

Our parts swappers have been real busy the last year. They think AB is going to cure that They can't tell me what processor of the 25 compactlogix CPU yet.  If they want to spend the money that's their problem but when they will not pay for good techs that's what you get.

What really blew my mind my boss who has never programmed a PLC said that you can deploy AB twice as fast as any PLC. But don't tell me that it can be deployed twice as fast and implied that I have to do that!

I will miss stage programming the most.
simple modbus communications, Peer to peer , PLC to drives and PLC to PC At the cost of Do-more's I use  several and link by modbus.
Rampsoke
and the CTRIO2.

AB had the automation rep in today and no work around for the above items. So if any of you bright folks have a work around for the loss of the above function please enlighten me. Right now I feel I have one hand tied behind my back and thrown in the ring with George Foreman and told I have to knock him in two rounds.

Ps if any know of a place in North East Texas that would like a very experienced Do-more programmer that can do some real off the wall stuff PM me.

[davidbgtx]

For some reason the analog cards fail occasionally, (Facts engineering) but all the other cards are very reliable, and I've been using AD for a long, long time. You can't beat the tech support, especially Host. Free software, free upgrades, free tech support, low cost, reliable, what's not to like.