Software friendliness

[tmoulder]

Okay, I've been using the do-more designer software long enough now to start rendering some constructive criticisms about it.  Most of this falls under the heading of "let me just get on with it".

1.  If I add an unused bit to the ladder, and nothing is defined (tag, comment, etc), it should automatically open the data entry pop-up.  Wasted mouse clicks double-clicking an element I just added to give it a name.

2.  If I change a description or tag in the data-entry pop-up, I should not have to hit enter 3 times to implement the change and close the window.  On a related note, having to hit ctrl-enter to add another line is so last-century.  Give me an instruction comment line-wrap parameter I set once, and parse accordingly so I can just get on with typing.

3.  When assigning addresses to ladder objects, I don't need to know there are 2048 X bits in the memory configuration - I need to browse them and choose the one I want.  My programming style uses memory ranges - C1000 to C1200 reserved for alarm bits, etc, and the current scheme offers little practical support for this.  As it stands, I assign X32 to "Start Button" and if I want to assign it to a bit elsewhere, I need to look it up in my hand written notes.

4.  Yes, I know - tags.  I've never met a tag I didn't hate instantly.  Simple example - Tag says "MotorOn" with no indication of whether this is an X, Y, or C bit.  Sure, you can make a naming convention, but people being people, it gets forgotten, alot.  The more programmers involved in a project the more messed up it becomes - exponentially.

Prefix the tag automatically with the data type.  And allow spaces in Tag names.  Most of us are neither young nor computer science majors, and reading these makes for eye-strain and migraines.

5.  When I open the tool pallet, it covers a third of the screen, and the first thing I do in edit mode is close it again.  Nevertheless, I use it alot.  A true love-hate relationship.  Restructure it to a tool bar with drop-down and fly-out menus.  Show me a list of categories and I can figure out what I need from there.

The software is pretty good so far, but I'd ask you to consider and adhere to an ancient, hoary principle of HMI design - 2 button presses is one too many.

Thanks!

TM

[tmoulder]

Regarding the tool-tip pop-ups for the instruction pallet, I appreciate the amount of work that went into these, but honestly - overkill.  A simple definition of what the element is would be sufficient to let me know if it's the item I want to use in a given spot.  You already let me click on the tool-tip to go directly to the help page, and that is a VERY GOOD THING   But it's not nescessary to provide every scrap of info up-front, particularly since it hides most of the pallet whenever it pops.

[tmoulder]

Possible bug - whenever I switch ladder sort order to "by execution order", the system tasks, used and unused, disappear from the ladder tree,

[franji1]

I like all your comments...

1. Definitely like this as an option.

2. The first ENTER "Writes Detail" then second "Exits" (not sure of the third).  Possibly make an option for the Element Browser to "Always Exit on Write Detail"?

You don't need to use Ctrl+Enter, it does word-wrap.  Ctrl+Enter is there to let you format precisely where YOU want the CR to be instead of the word-wrap algorithm.  Just type, and the words will wrap, up to 6 lines worth.

3. Are wanting some kind of tree/cascaded menus grouped by type then on 10 point boundaries for ID?  Please provide details.

4. Cool idea.  Possibly color or subscript/superscript, or ?

5. Agreed.  Cascading menu on toolbar and right click context menu would be nice.

FYI, if you know the first couple characters of a box mnemomnic, just type it in the output column on top of a NOP or empty output cell - no need to browse (this has auto complete, so just hit the first 1 or 2 characters to see choices).  For OUT coil, just start typing the element in the output column on a blank cell or NOP (ignore box auto complete, "Y0" will bring up editor for the OUT coil w/Y0).  For NO contacts, just start typing the element, for NC contact, hit forward slash "/" then the element.

For any existing instruction, just hit space bar to initiate editing, or if you need to change the first parameter, just start typing and it will start the editor on the first field with that first key stroke.

[franji1]

Regarding the tool-tip pop-ups for the instruction pallet, I appreciate the amount of work that went into these, but honestly - overkill.  A simple definition of what the element is would be sufficient to let me know if it's the item I want to use in a given spot.  You already let me click on the tool-tip to go directly to the help page, and that is a VERY GOOD THING   But it's not nescessary to provide every scrap of info up-front, particularly since it hides most of the pallet whenever it pops.

Yes, it's big.  It's not for everybody (or every computer monitor).  One big decision in the development of Do-more was that it was NOT JUST a big 260 that could store documentation in the PLC.  The instruction set and programming capabilities are quite extensive.  Hence, there is a need to educate users on the breadth/depth of the tool set.  The Ladder Palette is meant to be similar to CAD or graphic tool palettes.  It's meant for larger or multiple monitors.  It's definitely NOT for every user/system.  Note that you can turn off tooltips in the Ladder Palette under the Options... button.

The Instruction Browser is a modal dialog is a different "instruction selection" tool that helps a little (only because its modal, not because it has a small foot print  ).  Also, the mnemonic entry (mentioned in my other post) is what many "experts" use, those who are pretty familiar with the instruction set and corresponding mnemonics.

However, I do like the cascading menu idea for the "intermediate" user.

[franji1]

Possible bug - whenever I switch ladder sort order to "by execution order", the system tasks, used and unused, disappear from the ladder tree,

Yes, we know about that one.  It's just the Unused System Tasks, and the "$tFirstScan" and "$tLastScan" code-blocks.  All of the other "used" system tasks should be shown - let us know if this is not the case.  We need to fix this, regardless.

[BobO]

1.  If I add an unused bit to the ladder, and nothing is defined (tag, comment, etc), it should automatically open the data entry pop-up.  Wasted mouse clicks double-clicking an element I just added to give it a name.

I'm sure that could be added as an optional behavior and might even be a great way to encourage proper documentation. There is already a way to do what you want...kinda. Rather than entering the element name, enter the new nickname you want to create. We then pop up a box that lets you assign it to the desired element. It doesn't allow you to create a description at that point, so that may not fly.

It also gives you the option of DmD assigning the first free element of a specified type. Since you pointed out that certain things in the PLC world are stuck in the last century, I'm gonna flip that back on you. I personally could not care less where my internal variables are located. I see the need to know or care as being similarly last century.

This one is gonna fly in some faces, but I also wouldn't use physical I/O directly in the program...in fact...I wouldn't even document physical I/O at all. I would use the MAPIO instruction to move physical I/O into and out of internals (randomly assigned <shudder>), and would write my entire program to be abstract of X, Y, WX and WY. By doing so, changing where a physical point is only requires editing the MAPIO table, and doesn't require any edits to documentation or program.

2.  If I change a description or tag in the data-entry pop-up, I should not have to hit enter 3 times to implement the change and close the window.  On a related note, having to hit ctrl-enter to add another line is so last-century.  Give me an instruction comment line-wrap parameter I set once, and parse accordingly so I can just get on with typing.

I assume you are referring to the Element Browser. It is not the primary nor intended place to edit documentation. It is intended as a browser to see what is valid/available for the current field. We added the ability to edit documentation there as a courtesy. The Doc view is the primary doc editing facility...Ctrl+D. No 'enter' required there, just tab to the next field.

3.  When assigning addresses to ladder objects, I don't need to know there are 2048 X bits in the memory configuration - I need to browse them and choose the one I want.  My programming style uses memory ranges - C1000 to C1200 reserved for alarm bits, etc, and the current scheme offers little practical support for this.  As it stands, I assign X32 to "Start Button" and if I want to assign it to a bit elsewhere, I need to look it up in my hand written notes.

Not sure exactly what the expectation is, but I think this ties into my comments for #1.

4.  Yes, I know - tags.  I've never met a tag I didn't hate instantly.  Simple example - Tag says "MotorOn" with no indication of whether this is an X, Y, or C bit.  Sure, you can make a naming convention, but people being people, it gets forgotten, alot.  The more programmers involved in a project the more messed up it becomes - exponentially.

Prefix the tag automatically with the data type.  And allow spaces in Tag names.  Most of us are neither young nor computer science majors, and reading these makes for eye-strain and migraines.

Again...#1.

On spaces...can't. Nicknames are actual symbols which can be used in MATH expressions.

5.  When I open the tool pallet, it covers a third of the screen, and the first thing I do in edit mode is close it again.  Nevertheless, I use it alot.  A true love-hate relationship.  Restructure it to a tool bar with drop-down and fly-out menus.  Show me a list of categories and I can figure out what I need from there.

I actually played with a concept like this when we first developed DSP in 1992-94. I'm sure the browser could be improved, and as we have time we will revisit much of this.


Do-more is the future of Host Engineering, and we are just getting started on it.

[Controls Guy]

1.  If I add an unused bit to the ladder, and nothing is defined (tag, comment, etc), it should automatically open the data entry pop-up.  Wasted mouse clicks double-clicking an element I just added to give it a name.

That's like the worst idea I ever heard.  Say there's a bit you don't intend to document for whatever reason -- do you want to interrupt your code entry flow and use part of your finger's finite supply of clicks to close the nannying box EVERY single time you use the element??

[BobO]

1.  If I add an unused bit to the ladder, and nothing is defined (tag, comment, etc), it should automatically open the data entry pop-up.  Wasted mouse clicks double-clicking an element I just added to give it a name.

That's like the worst idea I ever heard.  Say there's a bit you don't intend to document for whatever reason -- do you want to interrupt your code entry flow and use part of your finger's finite supply of clicks to close the nannying box EVERY single time you use the element??

That's what 'options' are for. If he wants it that way, cool...it may fit nicely in his way of doing things. But we would make it optional, so we won't unnecessarily deplete you of your daily click quota.

[Controls Guy]

That's what 'options' are for. If he wants it that way, cool...it may fit nicely in his way of doing things. But we would make it optional, so we won't unnecessarily deplete you of your daily click quota.

Sure, more options can never be bad.  But....he seemed to think it should just work that way, period, and I wanted to get a quick word in lest anyone think that was the universal user outlook on the issue.

[BobO]

Sure, more options can never be bad. 

But....he seemed to think it should just work that way, period, and I wanted to get a quick word in lest anyone think that was the universal user outlook on the issue.

We still use many of the same keystrokes that we used in TISoft. Rest assured that we won't substantively mess with the status quo.

[tmoulder]

1.  If I add an unused bit to the ladder, and nothing is defined (tag, comment, etc), it should automatically open the data entry pop-up.  Wasted mouse clicks double-clicking an element I just added to give it a name.

That's like the worst idea I ever heard.  Say there's a bit you don't intend to document for whatever reason -- do you want to interrupt your code entry flow and use part of your finger's finite supply of clicks to close the nannying box EVERY single time you use the element??

That's what 'options' are for. If he wants it that way, cool...it may fit nicely in his way of doing things. But we would make it optional, so we won't unnecessarily deplete you of your daily click quota.

No, it should not pop up every time you enter a bit - only an undocumented bit.  I'm sure there is capability within the software to detect if a bit has a nick or desc and pop the box if not.  Leave the box closed if so.

I personally cannot conceive of any circumstance in which you would place an object of any sort in a program - and not document it.  In fact, I've been known to swear loud, long, and in front of witnesses for undocumented code.

 

[b_carlton]

So it becomes a 'to make this box stop popping up DOCUMENT THIS BIT!!!' prompt.

[tmoulder]

Thanks to everyone who responded, I think it's great to see such a swift and vigorous response

With regards to the items I brought up, I mentioned the element browser a moment ago for pop-up on placing an unused element, I see no issue with making this an option you can turn off or on.  I wouldn't want Darth Ladder to get too excited

Regarding the three enters, as follows:

I place bit C2040, then click it again to bring up the little gray highlight box, then click the magnifying glass to see the browser so I can enter a description.
I enter said description - taking note that the word wrap is in fact there, although wide for my taste - fair enough.
Enter - pop window for unsaved changes
Enter - saves change and clears the brower window away
Enter - confirms all of this and clears away the little gray highlight box around C2040

***

Within the element browser,

1.  Make the "Nicknames" box into a table that also displays the address.  It should display if the bit is used in the program.  That would cover it perfectly.
2.  Color code or subscript for the element type in nicks would be fantastic.  I'm flexible, I just want some indication.

Thanks for the tip about the box names, I'm actually doing that already.  Having a tool menu instead of the palette does sound like a great one for options.

Bob, you're in good company on the memory mask approach.  First time I ever heard that one was from Terry Woods.  I think it's situational - some people might have a reason to manipulate their IO table with frequency, whereas I don't.  Once assigned they stay there unless one burns out.

That said, yes yes yes the ability to choose the first unused bit would be terrific.  And while I don't give a hoot about my timers (unless I double coil, then I care a great deal) I do care a great deal about internal memory.  To re-iterate, I want to assign all my alarms to a consecutive bank of addresses, and while I could do that with elaborate nicknames, addresses are so much tidier.

I got it on the spaces, well, it was worth a try.

More later

[tmoulder]

So it becomes a 'to make this box stop popping up DOCUMENT THIS BIT!!!' prompt.

Amen to that!